EDITED VERSION OF MY ORIGINAL POST..... HOPEFULLY THIS IS MORE LOVING.
Heene, You want proof my friend. Here's proof....
30,000 converts to christianity per month in China and even more in India.
China has an estimated 40 million christians living there today which means that it houses the largest Christian population in the world. Compare that to China the 1970's when there were only a few hundred thousand living there. That's a pretty big difference. I bet if you asked a Chinese Christian if Christ was losing the war on earth he would laugh and point you to the overwhelming evidence that Christ is not only winning the war on earth but making a mockery of those who doubt HIS power and promise of victory.
"it illustrates the official change in heart towards the Christian minority, and what could eventually be the largest national church in the world." ~ Robert Pigott, BBC News
13To which of the angels did God ever say,
"Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet"[a]? ~Hebrews 1:13
12But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool
~ Hebrews 10:12-13
I heard on both a christian radio station and NPR the other day that the Latest survey on how Americans today view Christians shows over 85% of the people in America describe Christianity in a very pessimistic way. They were described as people who hated homos and hated abortionists and thought everyone was going to hell. Christians are not known in America for showing the World the love and Mercy of Jesus Christ. Instead, we are known for hating people and getting hung up on particular issues in the world and centering our life around those things and not Christ. There is something wrong with that. That is not the good news of Jesus Christ. Christ promised LIFE, LOVE, and MERCY as well as a VICTORY ON EARTH! and that is what he will bring. Christ came to save the world and that is what he will do. This is ridiculously clear when we look out into the world and see what Christ is doing in other nations.
Let's look at scripture and what is going on outside of our nation in order see what God is doing and what evidences there are of His victory ON EARTH before we jump to eschatological conclusions or take the dispensationalists word for it.
A look at Preterism (a.k.a. postmillenialism) http://www.apocalipsis.org/preterism.htm
There is more I have to say but I will say it in my comments inside the post....
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26 comments:
I dont think I ever said that Christ was losing the war. How can he lose the war??????? I know how the story ends. I am just saying that I think maybe just perhaps we might be getting closer to the end. Don't get your panties in a wad. And I dont know why you cant spell my name right if it is all over the page. tha sooth will trump agn.
Mark, please stop throwing insults around during discussions. It doesn't add anything and only makes you look desperate.
I don't have time to comment fully right now, but I have to say something. I believe that posting evidence of the depravity of this world (as exemplified by the degrading American society) is neither edifying or unedifying. However, openly insulting people is unedifying. I think it would be a great thing to discuss eschatology with you guys. As a partial preteristic postmillennial-amillennialist, I could use some educating on the matter.
you are right blake and John, I should have left out the insults. My heart was not right at all in most of the post. I appreciate you pointing that out.
I'm simply stating that John, you are way off base biblically for thinking that any of the evidences you are posting points to the "end of the world." You need to put down the Left Behind series and read some better books on this subject. It is clear that you have fallen in to the reactionary trap and propaganda of the despensationalists in regards to their reaction towards Darwinism in the late 19th century. You need to learn to question what you hear and hold it up to scripture. Scripture is clear that God wins, not just in the end, but is victorious on THIS EARTH. His enemies will be made a footstool, not just at the end of time at judgement day, but here, and He's doing it right now. Apparently you didn't read the whole blog either. If you had read further I was presenting you with evidences contrary to the evidences you keep posting on the blog. I'm saying that there is way more evidence on earth and in scripture to believe in a world that is getting better, not worse.
As you are posting these blogs you are probably sitting down in a nice cushioned chair with a pizza in the microwave and the television on in the background with your AC at exactly 72 degrees and you are complaining that the world is going downhill and is about to end because things are getting so bad. that doesn't make any sense. Not that those things prove Christ will win, but that it amazes me that you can complain in light of those things as well as the evidences that I gave you that the world is actually accepting Christ in unmeasured numbers.
The only reason premillennialism even came about was because the Christians were so terrified of Darwinism. Do you want to base your beliefs off of a reactionary doctrine or off of the truth in scripture? As a believer you should seek truth and test EVERYTHING with scripture before you accept a certain view or doctrine as the truth. I simply want to challenge you in this area and make sure that that is your intentions before you start posting these unedifying blogs.
on the last paragraph - don't comment that premillennialism came out of the 1st century. I know that already, but it was deemed a heresy in the church for 1700 years until the 19th century.
Sorry that one before was me. Accidentally posted prior to completion.
Mark, I'm not sure I know what you mean about unedifying or how you can make the assertion that heene, in posting examples of how the God designed family structure is progressively being destroyed in our country, is being unedifying to us. However, if we look back at some of your previous posts we see blatant mockery of our President. Is that edifying? Or other posts (not necessarily by you, and certainly including myself) with lewd or suggestive content. Is this edifying? I would argue neither are! If you are going to condemn someone for posting "unedifying" subject matter, it would be best if you do it in an objective manner.
Are you making an argument on the principal that posting news about individuals is unedifying? I would tend to agree, based on the idea that we don't "need to know." However, that is an argument that would probably evoke much the same reaction as to my opinions of facebook users (aka girly men).
I would be right behind you if you wanted to make a blanket admonishment to us all, from now on, to only post material that is edifying for the Christian brother. Just honest discussion between friends and fellow soldiers in the army of Christ.
Blessings
Mark, I hope that you are not trying to imply that I do not have the brain power to form my own opinions. I am no lemming and I have not even read the left behind series. Nor do I set my thermostat at 72 because I can not afford to have my house that cool during the summer time. It is actually set at 82 in the summer and 68 in the winter just in case anyone cares. My whole life has been spent questioning everything I hear and not accepting as fact just because it came out of someone else's mouth both in my professional career and in my spiritual walk. I do not appreciate the personal attacks. Smarter men then us disagree on this stuff so I don't know how you can be so close minded to think that it is your way or the highway and there is no other possibility based on your interpretation of the Word.
John G, Talking about issues is not what I am calling unedifying. If you look closer at my argument you will see that what I am calling unedifying is the pessimism of a premil worldview. For any Christian to claim something pessimistically outside of the bounds of scripture is ultimately unedifying. Also, if you'll look at my comment of "getting hung up on" such issues, you should see the implication that I am saying that there are better things to talk about then homos getting married. That is a surface issue, not the heart of it. To talk about surface issues is ultimately useless and unedifying in the sense that it gets nothing accomplished. It's like sitting in the doctors office and talking to him about your runny nose for an hour. in the end he can only prescribe kleenex tissues. Then, to use those surface issues as your "proof" of the end times without bringing scriptural text in, ultimately leads to a chaotic argument based off of surface issues and emotion. We will never get anywhere that way. If we are trying to edify one another, as I assume we are, we need to leave surface things out except in good humor, and post things that either uplift or are worth talking about. If we are going to post stuff worth talking about, we need to form our argument off of something foundational, not worldly.
I hope this clears things up a bit for ya johnny.
John H,
I'm sorry you feel I am questioning your intelligence. One doesn't get through law school by being an idiot. I don't question your potential, but I do question your means. You are basing an entire argument off of petty issues that are merely symptoms of another problem. But ultimately, and you should know this as a lawyer, you are trying to connect something you call evidence to something that it is in no way connected to. It's like saying, "Hey, there is a Donut on the ground. That is evidence that Cops have been here."
Basically you have heard a rumor about the end times and you connect everything around you to that rumor instead of asking "What does scripture say about this?"
"Smarter men then us disagree on this stuff so I don't know how you can be so close minded to think that it is your way or the highway and there is no other possibility based on your interpretation of the Word." ~ John H
Let me ask you something john, When you see a red apple, are you open minded to it being purple? I hope not. When I see something clearly laid out in scripture I am not going to be open minded to any other view of it. You would be surprised how many dumb smart men and theologians there are out there who are unwilling to search the depths of scripture for truth. There is overwhelming evidence biblically, archaeologically, historically and presently in our world that postmil is not only the better view, but that the others fall too short of the truth to hold onto.
Here is my question. Have you adequately searched scripture to find what you believe on this subject? If so, what is your REAL proof of premil?
P.S. Heene, I thought I took care of the personal attacks in my renouncing of the attacks on the post when I reedited it. I am not attacking you. I am challenging you. We are men and we can wrestle harshly without mortally wounding and it is good for us. I apologize if you feel like this is personal. I only want to challenge your line and foundation of thought on this subject.
I think that one very unfortunate fact of the reformed Christian is that humility is sometimes seriously lacking in many cases because so much emphasis is placed on academic proficiency in disputed doctrinal areas. However, if something is so plainly spelled out, then why is there disagreement? Briefly, "Smarter men then us..." John MacArthur is a reformed dispensationalist/premillennialist. However, he is a child of God and co-heirs of Christ's Kingdom with us.
Another trap of the "reformed" is that we get fooled into thinking that head knowledge is sufficient for the Christian walk, but it's not. It's much easier to understand the equations to calculate the force required to life 1000 pounds than it is to lift it yourself. I think (again, I include myself) that we are far too comfortable with being intellectuals. What good is it if we know everything about election, baptism or eschatology, but cannot practice the most basic and indisputable doctrines of Christ; to love and serve one another without any thought of self.
Is it edifying to be dogmatic to the point of self-idolization? God's word is inerrant, but are we? I do not agree with the premillennial interpretation of Revelation. I think that the post/amillennial description of Revelation's purpose (that the prophesy was "right now but not yet") to warn and comfort the early Christians about the destruction of Jerusalem, but also to prophesy about Christ's return is much more supportable by Scripture and history. Furthermore, it also gives such a real picture of God's reason to write Revelation and it makes it personal to the struggling church. God's Word had a real purpose then, as it does now. In my mind, Revelation wasn't just written for us, but for the tormented Christians of the mid-to-end first century.
The proper doctrine of baptism is a similar issue. The presbyterian can believe they have the right doctrine (and I believe they do), but to be dogmatic about it is to elevate yourself above the other person. I believe this touches on the unity debate. Why would anyone want to be unified with us if we bicker and insult each other in the name of a subjective interpretation of Scripture. And don't get me wrong. I believe eschatology is important. However, I believe understanding and practicing other doctrines should be emphasized before you tackle eschatology. Like the cross. Have we exhausted what can be learned by the cross? No. Then why don't we study it more?
One question Mark: Are you a full preterist?
Johnny, I would say that arrogance is not the issue. Reading properly into the context and word of God is. Personally, though I believe deeply that children should be baptized and that there is plenty of evidence both biblically and logically, I do not believe that it is laid out in scripture as clearly as postmil. Not only that, but that postmil and optimistic amil (which is basically preterist in it's view of Christ's kingdom) has been not only the historical view of the church but is the only biblical one. It is as clear as day in scripture when we aren't blinded by emotion and the traditions of our denominations. Don't accuse me of arrogance just because I am saying something is clearly laid out in scripture. That is not arrogant. that is truth. Be very careful my dear friend and make sure that you are not arrogant in your rebutle.
Reformers are not arrogant because they believe something strongly and see something others don't see or are unwilling to look at close enough. They are only arrogant in the manner they deal with people and when they assume they know everything about a subject. I am not claiming to know everything exhaustively about this subject, but it is clear enough (extremely clear) to take a solid and unwavering stance on.
Man is not perfect, and I would never claim to know the exhaustive truths laid out in scripture, but I will never back down from the argument that we can fully understand God's Word (please don't confuse that with exhaustively)and we can come to logical conclusions about every issue in scripture and at least be mostly right if we are willing to look at it outside of our own emotions and traditions. I believe that the Holy Spirit is the one to open our eyes to these things but it still leaves no excuse for not coming to the proper conclusion. God did not set out to trick man when he wrote scripture. He did not write Revelations to toy with us and see if we could get it or not. The problem isn't the uncertainty of the text, the problem is man's sin, emotions and traditions getting in the way of His understanding of that text.
Therefore, do not think that it is just "ok" to be on one side of the fence or the other. It is not ok! "Do not be luke warm" Revelations says. Be Zealous for the truth and find what scripture is saying about every issue.
Also, I never said that the premils or the non-infant baptizers were not my brothers. I don't know where you even begin to think that I am saying they are somehow not saved because we aren't on the same eschatological page. Please don't throw cheap shots. Whether someone believes the outer doctrines (non-salvific) of God's
Word doesn't mean I think they are unsaved. Come on man!
I am a partial preterist.
Johnny - "Another trap of the "reformed" is that we get fooled into thinking that head knowledge is sufficient for the Christian walk, but it's not. It's much easier to understand the equations to calculate the force required to life 1000 pounds than it is to lift it yourself. I think (again, I include myself) that we are far too comfortable with being intellectuals. What good is it if we know everything about election, baptism or eschatology, but cannot practice the most basic and indisputable doctrines of Christ; to love and serve one another without any thought of self."
- Please make relevant arguments. What you are saying is true but this is completely irrelevant to the discusion that we are having.
Mark, to borrow an example from your post, You cant just say that I am not making personal attacks just because you say that "I am not making personal attacks". That does not change the things that you are actually saying.
I agree, that is why I apologized the first time and reedited my post. Now I am saying that I am not making this a personal attack, though it is an attack, it is not personal. It is an attack on your argument. I assume that you can disassociate the two.
Please Johnny, please don't play the humility card in this debate. That is a cheap card to play and completely irrelevant for a debate. I've never seen a "humble" debate (I put that in quotation marks because I am using your meaning of the word within the context you used). How can iron sharpen iron when it is soft in it's beliefs. Humility is wonderful when we are dealing with each other on personal levels and issues, but when we debate, we debate rigorously and sometimes harshly to sharpen each other. Isn't that what this blog is about. I can wrestle and spar with you on this blog and it can temporarily hurt us and yet when I see you we are still best friends and brothers. We are Men aren't we? Men wrestle and spar and sharpen each other. How I am acting about a subject should not warrant the humility card. I think you need to play that card in a different setting. Not this one. I am not being arrogant by taking a hard a fast stance. I am standing my ground and waiting for you to throw the next blow.
Gal 5:22 (Fruit of The Spirit)-Kindness is one of them
2 Pet 1:5-10 (...to make your calling and election sure) Kindness is one of the crowning achievements in the progression Peter lists.
1 Cor. 13:4 (Love is Kind)
Eph 4:32 Be kind and compassionate
Eph 4:15 Speak the truth in love
Prov (?) A gentle answer turns away wrath
1 Th 5:14-16 Patient with everyone...kind to one another
2 Tim 2:24 "And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them capitve to do his will."
I think its safe to say that God wants us to be kind to each other. There are times when sharp rebuke is necessary (Paul's rebuke of Peter in Gal 2:11 and Christ's continual rebuke of pharasees)this is not the same as collegial debate amongst friends and brothers though. It is a last resort in times of greivous error. We can say, " you are wrong and here's why." We cannot use condescension, superiority, and harshness as a standard of practice and hope to keep the bonds of fellowship overlong, however. Tone is EVERYTHING. Its not what you say, its how you say it. You can call someone a schmuck and get punched in the face or you can tactfully, graciously, and with the full admission that you are also a schmuch call them a schmuck and have them thank you for it. The truth is the truth...how you present it is key (even for presbyterians (:).
Saying that you can attack someone's argument without attacking them is incorrect, I think. You ARE attacking THEM because it is THEIR opinion. If it is wrong it reflects their weakness, misinformation, and lack of logic. That is insulting. The only way to convince and convert is to acknowledge that we all have areas in which we are weak misinformed, and lacking in logic and that Christian sharpening consists of pointing these out to one another while opening ourselves to the same criticism.
In short, I do not agree with harshness in regular, day-to-day debate between friends. I think it retards more than it advances (and is disobedient to the multiple commands to be kind to one another found in scripture). Hold your position and advance its correctness fervently but speak the truth in love. Sword fighting dulls swords. Sharpening takes time and discernment.
I do honestly and in a non patronizing spirit commend mark for his repentence earlier in this discussion. Exemplarary.
wow, I can't argue with that. Thanks for that rebuke Sam
Let me communicate better what I was thinking and feeling when I wrote the post.
I've heard the end-of-the world argument so many times and it's been proclaimed so often that we are becoming discredited as Christians and accused of lying to the World. We can only cry wolf so long before they stop believing us completely. So far the end of the World was supposed to happen in 1976 1980 1988 and 2000 in specific prophecies of end time proclaimers.
To me this is the most frustrating issue among believers. I am sick of hear that the world is coming to an end, and I am disturbed that any christian believes this way. It is fruitless and ultimately it's a lie. I have dealt with two people just recently that told me they didn't believe in Christianity (for a few reasons but mainly) because Christians cry wolf all the time and have deceived those around them. It is hard for me to tolerate that kind of worldview. Especially among my friends.
This doesn't warrant the knee jerk reaction that I gave, but understand that I'm pissed over this issue. Heene just got the brunt end of it. Heene, I'm sorry for that. I should have been more sober minded in my reaction. I hope you will forgive me.
I'll start another post tomorrow and try to turn our debate more towards the postmil issue. This post is not going the way I had hoped. I want to talk about this though.
Sam, thank you for your encouragement and, as always, knowing how to rebuke in such a loving way. That helps teach me more than you know. Thanks for being such an example and for not just reacting back.
Sam, I am in awe every time I read you thoughts. God has surely blessed you with an incredible mind. I find rebuke toward my behavior in your words. I am so guilty of sword fighting, it's not even funny.
Mark, I also appreciate your sensitivity and humility in responding to rebuke. We can all learn from your example. What I would like to encourage you to do is to help us understand what you KNOW. You obviously have done significantly more reading and meditation on this subject than either heene or myself. So, let's start a eschatology thread. Let's talk about Jesus' Revelation to John. It doesn't have to be anything in depth, but it will aid us all in our study and thought. I truly look at you all on this blog as my "go to guys" for theological issues. I don't like being an island of thought. This is a medium that allows for questions to be raised, arguments to be heard and understanding to be advanced. I don't see how anyone has not already benefited from what has been discussed in the recent "revival" of the C-file.
I envision the C-file living long in its current form. It's a very different game to try and think of something funny to post on the blog. I think that's why it died before. However, we are constantly learning, growing and being sanctified in mind and life. This gives us all an ability to share the deepest thoughts in order to be edifying to each other and also for we ourselves to learn.
We must keep humility part of our discussion because each person represents very different doctrinal background and life experience. We also all live at different places in our walk with Christ. We all have much to learn! I want to be able to ask questions about issues that are often divisive in most discussion environments. I want to ask without worrying that someone is going to be insulted and regret being a part of this blog. I want to ask Blake and John questions about baptism. I want to learn. I want to discuss the doctrine of predestination and election. There are certainly other areas that are deserving of discussion, but those examples are some that have been on my mind and heart recently. We certainly can learn the most by reading, and we will be personally edified. However, for the sake of unity in heart with each other, discussion is vital. What better way to know where you are in life then to know what is on your heart?
Thanks Johnny, that was kind. I figured we would start with Matthew 24. Let's just discuss that for now, I am not as well versed in Revelations yet. This is an ongoing learning process. I encourage all of you to read the book "Postmillenialism an Eschatology of hope," by Mathison
One thing that has floored me in learning about all of this is that all of the sudden almost every other verse in the Bible is Postmil. Mathison does an incredible job of opening up ALL of scripture in light of preterism.
P.S. For you baptists, just want to let you know that this is not just a presbyterian belief. I first saw this book on the bookshelf at Bethlehem Baptist Church in Minneapolis, MN, which is John Pipers Church. He is a Preterist as well.
I think this discussion exemplifies a problem with the reformed tradition.
The call to look past our own nation to the world (above) when considering the state of christianity is a good one. It should be mirrored by an effort to concentrate on the things that unify us as Christians, which, as I argued in my post a few days ago, are expressed most clearly in the historic creeds. These are the only things worth "fighting" about. Everything else, to me, is a discussion.
But in reformed circles (not just presbys) we perpetually give in to the narcissism of small differences. We argue and label ourselves with great gusto, positioning ourselves at different ends of a very small debate and defending the position to the death.
Meanwhile,in China, a very large Christian cult called "Lightning from the East" believes that Jesus has already returned in the form of a young Chinese girl.
This, I would argue, is a real problem.
A sense of scale is important in any debate, and the debate over which way the world is heading and when Christ is coming back has a long and unfruitful history.
We know how he wants us to live. We know he IS coming back. And I, personally, am pretty sure he's not already here and living in China.
I agree in part with you Bob, but I also believe that our eschatological beliefs are important in how we learn to operate as Christians as well as define a clear purpose for spreading the gospel to the ends of the world. God wouldn't have discussed eschatological issues if they weren't important.
However, having said that, these issues are not salvific, nor should we focus on them in light of unity. But, as all issues in scripture, we should seek to debate and learn as much from scripture as possible. "Once reformed, always reforming" as Wilson says.
Don't forget that repentance was asked for on this page for the mode of argument. I understand it is not edifying to discuss such things harshly, but non-the-less, they are worth discussing.
We are brothers, and I will always seek to love each of you as such no matter what your beliefs outside the creeds.
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